Trinidad Express: Americans have head start

[Don1]

I saw it on the fields in Brentwood, New York. Some of those Colombian, Mexican, Brazilian and Haitians were simply unbelievable.

Since I have been in Florida again I am seeing the same level talent.

Oooh yes, it may be that our idea of talent differs. I look for what I judge to be about 40 yards - 4+sec (under 5 sec) bursts, *vision/seeing the field and using 'noggin', **good technical skills - total trapping and range passing & type passing, movement into support space, concerted and consistent effort to get to he ball first - both on offense and defense...and yuh dun kno I am all about TEAM.

*+** = frequency of completed good passes. (Flipside - Frequency with which ball is given away)

Ok boss.... I hear you.

[Assasin]

Well those of some of the best from the so called inner cities.

[Assasin]

Is technically ability learned?

If so does it make talent better? What you guys are saying is American players have the technical ability. DUUUUHHHHHH.

[Karl]

Well those of some of the best from the so called inner cities.

No!
...they are among those given favoured treatment!

[Warlord]

[
An appropriate comparison or analogy is basketball... where the best US players are seen by many as supremely "talented".
The best US football players are not so regarded.... even within the parochial US media.

If lists were made of the best football players of any year or era... the US would probably not be represented by most pundits.... if one believes that statement as I do.... then it's logical to conclude that US players are nothing special.

You and others are entitled of course to a contrary opinion.

For starters you need to learn how to use the multi quote feature on the forum that diffrentiates between posts made from me and the ones that you make instead of a logjam of both into one post. It will surely make for an easier read between comments.

[Assasin]

No Karl.

Teams like the Metro Stars went all out to include inner city and minorities in their program. They scouted Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens. They have academies that work with any club that needs help in organization etc.

They made the effort having caribbean day at least 3 times but it was not supported by the people in NY. They had Beenie Man, Haitian, Act, Trini act and a carival like affair co-sponsored by caribbean promoters.

The American football system is trying to reach out but when we don't care about our children, we don't want to volinteer time, we don't help to run our kids team and we don't care if they go to games or not, do you think they will get the support?

I was often at my friends tournament in Rockland and we have some good teams coming from the NY area. This is about 20 miles out of the city and all you see is 2 parents and the coach for a complete team.

Nuff times I hear some of the better coaches saying "man if I coulda get that youth or that two youth in my team" Yes there is some talent but don't blame the current US system, they are trying and we should meet them halfway.

[Warlord]

[Originally Posted by Don1]

I don't need to practice comprehension... it comes naturally... but thanks for the concern.

That is very debatable because you seem to not know how to grasp the basic fundamentals of english language comprehension.

The US is in a weak zone. The US has massive people and material resources. The US prepares its teams well..... Voila! ... the US consistently qualifies for the WC.... generally with few alarms.
Your attempt at a point re US players getting contracts etc is so confused... I wont bother to engage that.
Suffice it to say that US players are not highly ranked individually in football.... but their team is respected

.


And again what does the US being a weaker confederate have to do with their player's technical ability not being good? Mexico has a large population with a strong player pool with a far better league that develops its players. They also prepare their teams well yet they dont have standpoint players like the US so what is your point? Your logic is flawed.

USA doesnt have to have individual players that stand out on the world stage to be successful but they do have good players with technical ability that are good at what they do. They may not be players with flair but they most certainly have the basic fundamentals unlike some other nations players in this region. As a matter of fact they've never had any players that would make a world top player but they've been competitive in and outside of Concacaf in recent years.

Btw you didnt answer the question I asked in the previous post.

I agree with you here... it is also consistent with my statement: The US has well prepared teams able to compete at a high level.

So does Mexico? I still dont get your point! Mexico won the U-17 WC in "05 and theyve also had U-20 and U-23 teams that were competitive much like the US.

An appropriate comparison or analogy is basketball... where the best US players are seen by many as supremely "talented".
The best US football players are not so regarded.... even within the parochial US media.

Youre comparing apples to oranges here. Football and Basketball are two different sports with different technical aspects. That analogy is poor. I wont even bother explaining that.

If lists were made of the best football players of any year or era... the US would probably not be represented by most pundits.... if one believes that statement as I do.... then it's logical to conclude that US players are nothing special.

Again what does individual players have to with the success of the US national teams over the last decade or so? They dont need to have individual players that are superstars. All they need is a group that has mastered the fundamentals for each position and they do the job effectively. Oguchi Onyewu is a prefect example of what im talking about so is Landon Donovan. Are you gonna tell me that both players arent talented?

Flawed, flawed, flawed logic

[Don1]

[quote=Warlord;146341][Originally Posted by Don1]




That is very debatable because you seem to not know how to grasp the basic fundamentals of english language comprehension.



Funny.
.


And again what does the US being a weaker confederate have to do with their player's technical ability not being good? Mexico has a large population with a strong player pool with a far better league that develops its players. They also prepare their teams well yet they dont have standpoint players like the US so what is your point? Your logic is flawed.


I made no correlation between a weak federation and US player's technical ability. Again your comprehension skills (or rather lack thereof) fail you.

I made the point that the combination of a weak group and a well prepared team, makes US WC qualification relatively easy... and also that not having great players has not prevented the US from developing a team able to compete at a high level.

btw in your response above.... that should be... "the US being in a weak Confederation"

USA doesnt have to have individual players that stand out on the world stage to be successful but they do have good players with technical ability that are good at what they do. They may not be players with flair but they most certainly have the basic fundamentals unlike some other nations players in this region. As a matter of fact they've never had any players that would make a world top player but they've been competitive in and outside of Concacaf in recent years.

All the above is reasonable.... and contradicts nothing I said but rather ... supports my beliefs.

1. The US does not produce outstanding players at the world level
2. They don't need such players to have an effective team able to compete at high levels
3. Their players have good fundamental skills

I recognize your agreement with my thesis even if you don't... kudos to you.





So does Mexico? I still dont get your point! Mexico won the U-17 WC in "05 and theyve also had U-20 and U-23 teams that were competitive much like the US.

If you don't get my point by now... I don't believe I can help you further.


Youre comparing apples to oranges here. Football and Basketball are two different sports with different technical aspects. That analogy is poor. I wont even bother explaining that.

No doubt you won't try to explain because you can't.

Both sports have technical components. Both are played widely in the US.

The US is the best in the world and produces great players in one and is a relative underachiever in the other while not producing highly regarded individual players at the world level.
End of story.

Again what does individual players have to with the success of the US national teams over the last decade or so? They dont need to have individual players that are superstars. All they need is a group that has mastered the fundamentals for each position and they do the job effectively. Oguchi Onyewu is a prefect example of what im talking about so is Landon Donovan. Are you gonna tell me that both players arent talented?

Your point re the US team is largely dealt with in my prior responses above.

Talent, like everything else is relative and also subjective.
You and others may believe that those two are "talented" in the sense of having great talent... maybe they are... at a certain level.

At the world level (which is my frame of reference) those two players are nothing special.

[Bill Moravek]

All right..here is my 2cents.There are alot of good points on here...and I agree with alot of what you said..and Don. There are some very good technical players in the US 17's...but...I think as a whole..this country is seriously lacking.

First of all...yes..we are very organized..almost to a fault. The kids here NEVER...I MEAN NEVER...play pick up football...not even in the city from what I am told. I think a big part of the reason is because the clubs are so spread out...it isn't like in Jamaica, or England..or Brazil...where you have things so tight knit. I have to take William 90 minutes..ONE WAY MAN...to put him with some quality athletes and some kids who have a bit of grit. If I just put him out in the suburbs with all white kids who are so bloody soft anyway..he would destroy them. Trust me...these suburban kids can't manage anything. And that does him absolutely no good at all.

So there lies the problem...a country whose main source of players is coming from upper middle class white suburbia who pay trainers tons of money to coach some stupid travel teams..gimme a break man. Now this is changing..and the country is becoming more diverse in terms of footballers..but it will be some time till you see some real change...and they will have to stop charging youth players to play..it's ridiculous.

There is not one player in this country who would be considered world class...period. Unless you count keepers. We will never be any force until we have quality individual players. You must have quality individuals before there can be a real quality world class team. Without that..it just is not possible. And this is the reason why the national team can go to the world cup..qualify that is..but then falls seriously short of the upper tier.

Also...the best footballers have to leave this country when they are as young as 13-16 and go to Europe if they have any realistic chance of becoming a top professional overseas. We fall seriously short once we get to those ages. At 16 those guys in Europe are being groomed to be a pro. Here ..we have the USA-17's..and then when they are done..they have to go back home and play for their club..and even high school because they will have a year left in some cases before college. And those are the formative years in terms of being a top class professional..16-20 years of age. You will have to make it by then overseas or it will become increasingly difficult as the player gets older.

[Warlord]

[quote=Don1;146352]

I made no correlation between a weak federation and US player's technical ability. Again your comprehension skills (or rather lack thereof) fail you.

You have repeatedly stated that the USA team doesnt have good technical players ( nothin special) and that the only reason they qualify for WC's are because of the following

a. Weak Confederate
b. They have solid organization
c. They invested in their programs.

LOL didnt you state all of the above? I called you out on the technical aspect of their players and now you have absolutely no defence to it?

I made the point that the combination of a weak group and a well prepared team, makes US WC qualification relatively easy... and also that not having great players has not prevented the US from developing a team able to compete at a high level.

Let me get this straight USA qualifies easily while not producing great players and they're able to compete at a high level? How is that possible? Can they take an ordinary bunch of MLS players and qualify for the WC? Do you think they can take an ordinary bunch of MLS players and compete at a high level at tournaments like the Confederations Cup? Copa America? No doubt youre talking out of your ass!

ll the above is reasonable.... and contradicts nothing I said but rather ... supports my beliefs.

Yet we who have supposedly better technical players cannot qualify for WC's consistently. The same goes for Canada, Haiti, Trinidad, Honduras. Yea that supports your twisted logic son.

1. The US does not produce outstanding players at the world level
2. They don't need such players to have an effective team able to compete at high levels
3. Their players have good fundamental skills

The US dont need good players to compete at a high level at these tournaments while Mex and every other team at these tournaments uses their best players. HAHAHAHA!!!

The US is the best in the world and produces great players in one and is a relative underachiever in the other while not producing highly regarded individual players at the world level.
End of story.

If I listened to that crap that you spew then Id believe too that Europe and to a lesser extent South America havent been producing great basketball talent of late too. Naw only in the US yet US got the bronze medal not too long ago at the at the World Championships and at the Olympics.


Its a good thing you're not an administrator for football in Jamaica or any other nation that plays the sport at a fanatical level. That would be a travesty to the game in itself. Stick to your day job kid.

[Don1]

[quote=Warlord;146388]

You have repeatedly stated that the USA team doesnt have good technical players ( nothin special) and that the only reason they qualify for WC's are because of the following

a. Weak Confederate
b. They have solid organization
c. They invested in their programs.

LOL didnt you state all of the above? I called you out on the technical aspect of their players and now you have absolutely no defence to it?






Let me get this straight USA qualifies easily while not producing great players and they're able to compete at a high level? How is that possible? Can they take an ordinary bunch of MLS players and qualify for the WC? Do you think they can take an ordinary bunch of MLS players and compete at a high level at tournaments like the Confederations Cup? Copa America? No doubt youre talking out of your ass!



[color=red]


Yet we who have supposedly better technical players cannot qualify for WC's consistently. The same goes for Canada, Haiti, Trinidad, Honduras. Yea that supports your twisted logic son.







The US dont need good players to compete at a high level at these tournaments while Mex and every other team at these tournaments uses their best players. HAHAHAHA!!!





If I listened to that crap that you spew then Id believe too that Europe and to a lesser extent South America havent been producing great basketball talent of late too. Naw only in the US yet US got the bronze medal not too long ago at the at the World Championships and at the Olympics.


Its a good thing you're not an administrator for football in Jamaica or any other nation that plays the sport at a fanatical level. That would be a travesty to the game in itself. Stick to your day job kid.

What utter rubbish!

Thankfully I don't have the time nor any inclination to address your garbage.

When someone is impervious to logic.... leave them be.

Selah

[Zeppo]

First of all...yes..we are very organized..almost to a fault. The kids here NEVER...I MEAN NEVER...play pick up football...not even in the city from what I am told.

That is true for the suburbs, but not for the city. Pickup games are quite common there, even if the kids are in large part immigrants or sons of immigrants.

That is a big factor in moving the game forward here; getting the kids to play pickup games on their own. I recently read something where the Scottish FA was lamenting the drop in their country's youths playing unsupervised street football. In terms of hours per week, they said it was not even half of what it was in the 60s and 70s.

Anyway, you make some very good points in your post, Bill. But I think the quality of youth player is better than what you give it credit for. A bigger problem is the quality of youth coaching. By now the progress our players have made has far surpassed the the progress that our coaching has made. We have too many coaches who grew up on baseball, gridiron football, basketball, etc. without ever seeing a soccer ball in their youth, and when it comes to coaching kids they have no clue. Their intentions are good, but it's still inadequate.

And then often we lose those kids to other sports at a crucial age. In countries like Italy and Brazil, for instance, sports like basketball and volleyball are quite popular and they fare quite well internationally in those competitions. But those sports still have no where near the amount of popularity that soccer holds there. Not even close. In the USA, however, the differences in popularity between the sports at the top of the pile (between gridiron, baseball and basketball) are marginal, leaving soccer with an uphill struggle to establish itself.

Anyway, given these factors (among others) I think that we are actually overachievers. We consistently qualify for the WC and have beaten some top teams on the world stage at the same time. Just a few years ago we were only a hair away from the World Cup semi-finals! In fact, I think that is a main reason why so many people in the region (including many on this forum) detest us; because we are competitive and have gotten results at the highest levels of the game, and most of the country doesn't even care!

Progress takes time, and becoming a power doesn't happen overnight. These people who keep pointing to how much US Soccer invests in things have no perspective of time. But it will happen. When my father was growing up he had never even seen a soccer ball. For my generation it was much better, but still not great. Now the only sport that attracts more youth players in the country is basketball. All of those kids will grow up with soccer backgrounds. Sure, many of them will go onto other sports, as I stated earlier. But even retaining a small percentage of them still means millions and millions. And for many years there was no pro league to follow, no American players to idolize. Now we have a solid professional league that has been in existence for over 12 years -- and most importantly, they are setting up youth academies.

Over the last 20-25 years there is no team in the world that has made as much progress as the USA has. After a 40-year absence we qualified for the 1990 World Cup, with a team full of college kids! Four years later we were beating Colombia and losing to Brazil only 1-0. Then fast forward a few more years and we were in the quarter finals. Sure, there were a few bumps along the way. But anyone who does not see an upward trajectory is either blind or ignorant.

Our future is bright and looking better every day.

[Bill Moravek]

I am not arguing the fact that the game has made vast improvments since 1990..it really is night and day the differences. However...as you pointed out..because of the other "3" big sports in this country..it will always be a struggle to attract the best athletes.

Ceratinly there are pickup games being played by immigrant kids in the cities...but that is just it..they are the immigrant kids that have not been given a place in our youth football. And to be fair..if the suburban people are running these clubs..often times they do not want these kids in the mix...which to me is very short sighted and racist. They will say they want "them" to play...but they will make these kids jump thru hoops just to be on the team. It is sickening really and have seen it first hand many times over the years.

You are correct as well in terms of the youth coaching being poor...but..at the end of the day...the bigger problem is that these kids do not play on their own in pick up games..and have older players to emmulate. Furthermore they do not have the hunger..the passion. How can you have these things when you are growiing up in Suburbia..and everything is handed to you on a silver platter? It is not possible. They have no passion for anything unless it is playig a cimputer game. The point is..the vast majority of the US's players come from this group of people and environment.

Another part of the problem here is that we as Americans think we know everything. Which is why the world has the view that it does of our country..but no..we want to say that everyone else is wrong..and just "jealous". It stems from our politics and trickles down into ever facet of our lives. We always want to do everything the "American" way...and unwilling to grasp more ideas and concepts from countries that have actually done something in the game in youth development and professional football over the years.

Will it get better here...certainly. But it will take a long long time.

[Don1]

All right..here is my 2cents.There are alot of good points on here...and I agree with alot of what you said..and Don. There are some very good technical players in the US 17's...but...I think as a whole..this country is seriously lacking.

First of all...yes..we are very organized..almost to a fault. The kids here NEVER...I MEAN NEVER...play pick up football...not even in the city from what I am told. I think a big part of the reason is because the clubs are so spread out...it isn't like in Jamaica, or England..or Brazil...where you have things so tight knit. I have to take William 90 minutes..ONE WAY MAN...to put him with some quality athletes and some kids who have a bit of grit. If I just put him out in the suburbs with all white kids who are so bloody soft anyway..he would destroy them. Trust me...these suburban kids can't manage anything. And that does him absolutely no good at all.

So there lies the problem...a country whose main source of players is coming from upper middle class white suburbia who pay trainers tons of money to coach some stupid travel teams..gimme a break man. Now this is changing..and the country is becoming more diverse in terms of footballers..but it will be some time till you see some real change...and they will have to stop charging youth players to play..it's ridiculous.

There is not one player in this country who would be considered world class...period. Unless you count keepers. We will never be any force until we have quality individual players. You must have quality individuals before there can be a real quality world class team. Without that..it just is not possible. And this is the reason why the national team can go to the world cup..qualify that is..but then falls seriously short of the upper tier.

Also...the best footballers have to leave this country when they are as young as 13-16 and go to Europe if they have any realistic chance of becoming a top professional overseas. We fall seriously short once we get to those ages. At 16 those guys in Europe are being groomed to be a pro. Here ..we have the USA-17's..and then when they are done..they have to go back home and play for their club..and even high school because they will have a year left in some cases before college. And those are the formative years in terms of being a top class professional..16-20 years of age. You will have to make it by then overseas or it will become increasingly difficult as the player gets older.

Excellent and insightful observations.

[Don1]

I am not arguing the fact that the game has made vast improvments since 1990..it really is night and day the differences. However...as you pointed out..because of the other "3" big sports in this country..it will always be a struggle to attract the best athletes.

Ceratinly there are pickup games being played by immigrant kids in the cities...but that is just it..they are the immigrant kids that have not been given a place in our youth football. And to be fair..if the suburban people are running these clubs..often times they do not want these kids in the mix...which to me is very short sighted and racist. They will say they want "them" to play...but they will make these kids jump thru hoops just to be on the team. It is sickening really and have seen it first hand many times over the years.

You are correct as well in terms of the youth coaching being poor...but..at the end of the day...the bigger problem is that these kids do not play on their own in pick up games..and have older players to emmulate. Furthermore they do not have the hunger..the passion. How can you have these things when you are growiing up in Suburbia..and everything is handed to you on a silver platter? It is not possible. They have no passion for anything unless it is playig a cimputer game. The point is..the vast majority of the US's players come from this group of people and environment.

Another part of the problem here is that we as Americans think we know everything. Which is why the world has the view that it does of our country..but no..we want to say that everyone else is wrong..and just "jealous". It stems from our politics and trickles down into ever facet of our lives. We always want to do everything the "American" way...and unwilling to grasp more ideas and concepts from countries that have actually done something in the game in youth development and professional football over the years.

Will it get better here...certainly. But it will take a long long time.

More excellence.