Trinidad Express: Americans have head start

[Don1]

So Don, is young Moravek talented? I don't think we should dismiss the ability of our regional rivals...what we have (generally)are footballers who learn their trade by playing; playing every day in the streets, with older youths in often hostile conditions. When they get into organized football, the challenge is to have them "unlearn" certain aspects of their game to recognize that football is in fact a team sport and not a game of "bowl for bat". BIG challenge.

talent n. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See synonyms at ability . Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.

The exception often proves the rule... young Moravek is exceptional and obviously well schooled. One hopes he can progress and play competitively at a high level.

The US is a well organized, professional team... that's it. That's all it needs to be to be atop our Confederation which is mediocre at best.

There are no exceptional players on the US national team or among the US players in any league I'm aware of.

Efficient yes.... particularly "talented"... I don't see it in US players at all. They do come together and create an effective team so I don't doubt their ability... within our region.

Jamaica is another matter entirely which I did not address as I was not comparing the two countries.

[Don1]

maybe we have different views in what constitutes talent.

It's the 'bottom-line' that counts 1 Don.

The US has qualified for every FIFA World Cup..since...since...since...

Thay have played and won against some of World's top countries and clubs.

"...and they don't have talent"....sigh

Your argument veers from the simplistic to the uninformed.

talent n. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See synonyms at ability . Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.

My opinion that the US players are not particularly talented as individuals has little to do with the team accomplishments.

The US qualifies regularly for the WC.. yes... from a very weak group.
Football is a team game and the US has fashioned a well prepared team that can compete at high levels.... but individually their players are nothing special and generally don't display what I would refer to as "an innate natural ability or superior quality".
You however are entitled to a contrary opinion.

How many US players would currently rank among the top 100 or even top 200 players now? Most probably none.

How many US players of ANY era would rank among the top 100 or 200? Most probably none.

For a rich nation of 300 million the US is a severe under-performer in the game and consistently produces players of no special merit at the world level.

But they do produce decent and competitive teams.



Don't bother to bring up any tired argument about Jamaica... the point here is the US... not a comparison with Jamaica.

[Assasin]

HL where is the great American talent? There is American player that is currently lighting up any league other than the MLS, Take for example Eddie Gavin(A player I like) He is not a very special talent but a player who has been molded in the American system to bring the best out of him.

yes it take talent to mold into special talent. HL if we had a decent coach working with 20 talented youngster on a regular basis you get results.

[Assasin]

Karl a talk bout 20 years ago.

how did Adu, and Altidore make it? yes there are some that currently miss it but in many case it is the lack of organization by our communities.

There is a lot of outreach but do we take advantage?

[Warlord]

Jamaica does not have the depth (and talent) as Amerkah...

Well said. Player pool is significantly larger and yes America does have some players with technical ability. Not to mention the fact that USSF has invested in excess of 60 million US in football since hosting the finals in '94.

[Warlord]

In reality America's advantage is not their so called "talent" as you seem to believe. Their talent is very ordinary.

However the USA has massive organizational capability and massive resources.

That's what puts that country ahead... at least in this minor region.

Are you saying that the only reasons that USA qualfies for consecutive WC finals are because of their organizational capabilities and their financial investment in soccer?

If so then you are completely delusional.

[Don1]

Are you saying that the only reasons that USA qualfies for consecutive WC finals are because of their organizational capabilities and their financial investment in soccer?

If so then you are completely delusional.

I long for the day when your comprehension skills match your propensity to post.

I stated clearly that:

1. The US is in a weak Confederation

2. While their players are nothing special individually... they have fashioned a decent team able to compete at a high level.

Is there something you fail to grasp in this?

[Peter R]

Don I agree with you on the reasons why America is successful in CONCACAF, i.e. organization and resources. On the issue of "talent"...if we are to compare the talent of both countries I do not believe that we have any more innate talent than Americans...however, the fact that our footballers are self-taught in the street so to speak rather than the products of organized house leagues might create the impression that we are more innately talented. I think what we have is probably more passion for the game than the American kid who does not play pick-up the way it is done in Jamaica and Latin America. Contrast that with Americans and basketball...where they do play a lot of pick-up and skills are honed in the street.

Again I don't know that children of immigrants to America grow up with the same passion or attitude that Jamaican kids would have experienced growing up and so that might explain what you see as lack of talent. Having said that I think I witnessed this ordinariness of players this past summer when I was in Canada and saw my friend's son (9 yrs old) play in a tournament ..and while a lot of the kids I saw didn't have the skills that I see among many kids here in T&T, I can tell you I would just as easily pick many of them to play for me as they have a good understanding of how to get the ball into the net.

All the above is you migh say is pure conjecture which it is...Unfortunately for us, in spite of talent that we do have, the two items you list will overcome talent any day or at least 8 times out of 10.

[Warlord]

[quote=Don1;146242]

I long for the day when your comprehension skills match your propensity to post.

You should practise what you preach son.

1. The US is in a weak Confederation

No way? who doesnt know that? Are you telling us something we didnt already know? Australia for many decades been in whats considered the easiest zone in the Oceania group with Solomon Islands, New Zealand and whoever else until this recent cycle where they're now in Asian Confederate with the likes of Japan, South Korea, China, Iran. Whats exactly is your point? Australia has top players in european leagues so does team USA who has exported the most players to Europe than any other nation in Concacaf in recent times. Do you think their players got contracts based on US team organization?

Mexico at one time in Concacaf dominated for a long time. Not only have they and the US done well in this region but they both have gotten past the group stages at the WC. The US reached the QF in '02 in Korea and Mexico made the quarterfinals on a couple occasions. Add to that the fact that they both play against good teams in the Confederations Cup and other international tournaments that teams like Jamaica, Honduras, TNT, and other Concacaf nations dont get the opportunity to play in. That in itself makes them better because they players get exposed to talent outside of the region playing at a higher level more often than anybody else.

While their players are nothing special individually... they have fashioned a decent team able to compete at a high level.

I have one factfile that maybe you should pay attention to. Mexico havent beaten USA in the US over the last couple of occasions. What does that tell you about the gap between USA and Mexico in recent times..(the last decade). USA players are nothing special individually right? what is your definition of nothing special? Is it because they've got players who arent good dribblers? what makes them nothing special? I await your response?

[Don1]

Don I agree with you on the reasons why America is successful in CONCACAF, i.e. organization and resources. On the issue of "talent"...if we are to compare the talent of both countries I do not believe that we have any more innate talent than Americans...however, the fact that our footballers are self-taught in the street so to speak rather than the products of organized house leagues might create the impression that we are more innately talented. I think what we have is probably more passion for the game than the American kid who does not play pick-up the way it is done in Jamaica and Latin America. Contrast that with Americans and basketball...where they do play a lot of pick-up and skills are honed in the street.

I wasn't really comparing the USA to Jamaica necessarily in my post... but I guess a comparison is inevitable given the nature of the forum.

The basketball analogy is on point... US kids have a passion for that game to the point where it's played spontaneously and widely. That passion is not present at the same level for football.... kids play football mainly in organized leagues... great for developing basic individual skills AND team play.... not so great for honing that "something special" that most people see as "talent".

Again I don't know that children of immigrants to America grow up with the same passion or attitude that Jamaican kids would have experienced growing up and so that might explain what you see as lack of talent. Having said that I think I witnessed this ordinariness of players this past summer when I was in Canada and saw my friend's son (9 yrs old) play in a tournament ..and while a lot of the kids I saw didn't have the skills that I see among many kids here in T&T, I can tell you I would just as easily pick many of them to play for me as they have a good understanding of how to get the ball into the net.

Agreed. The typical US youngster (and oldster) has ordinary individual skills... but they are very fit, prepared to play to a game plan, tactically aware etc... so their teams will generally prevail over an equivalent Jamaican/Caribbean team.
I guided my son through his neighborhood club, Long Island Soccer Leagues Div 1,2,3,4 & 5 (thankfully not in that order) the New York State Select and the Olympic Development Program. I traveled to tournaments throughout the East Coast with his teams... so I have an informed picture of kids 6-18... at least in this area.

All the above is you migh say is pure conjecture which it is...Unfortunately for us, in spite of talent that we do have, the two items you list will overcome talent any day or at least 8 times out of 10.

Organization and preparation will overcome "talent" 9 times out of 10.

Respek

[Karl]

talent n. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See synonyms at ability . Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.

The exception often proves the rule... young Moravek is exceptional and obviously well schooled. One hopes he can progress and play competitively at a high level.

The US is a well organized, professional team... that's it. That's all it needs to be to be atop our Confederation which is mediocre at best.

There are no exceptional players on the US national team or among the US players in any league I'm aware of.

Efficient yes.... particularly "talented"... I don't see it in US players at all. They do come together and create an effective team so I don't doubt their ability... within our region.

Jamaica is another matter entirely which I did not address as I was not comparing the two countries.

Your point was worth making. The level of organisation the USSF and its affiliate arms have across the US is 'wide and deep'...and the organisation at its national teams level impressive.

Why can we not work at getting to that same level organisation...even if only at the level of our national TEAMs?

Given the US' penchant to leave out there 'best talents'...we, if our organisation at the national team levels...using the talents we seem to throw up in unending numbers year after year - (talent that for the most part is marred) - should surpass the USA in terms of FIFA Rankings and performances on the World's stage/football fields.

I am 'sure' we would! ...and we should strike now before the US starts putting their most talented into their national teams. Wouldn't it be nice to have the US playing catch-up for a change?

[Don1]

[quote=Warlord;146246]

You should practise what you preach son.

I don't need to practice comprehension... it comes naturally... but thanks for the concern.




No way? who doesnt know that? Are you telling us something we didnt already know? Australia for many decades been in whats considered the easiest zone in the Oceania group with Solomon Islands, New Zealand and whoever else until this recent cycle where they're now in Asian Confederate with the likes of Japan, South Korea, China, Iran. Whats exactly is your point? Australia has top players in european leagues so does team USA who has exported the most players to Europe than any other nation in Concacaf in recent times. Do you think their players got contracts based on US team organization?

I thought I made it simple enough for you to understand.

The US is in a weak zone. The US has massive people and material resources. The US prepares its teams well..... Voila! ... the US consistently qualifies for the WC.... generally with few alarms.

Your attempt at a point re US players getting contracts etc is so confused... I wont bother to engage that.
Suffice it to say that US players are not highly ranked individually in football.... but their team is respected.

Mexico at one time in Concacaf dominated for a long time. Not only have they and the US done well in this region but they both have gotten past the group stages at the WC. The US reached the QF in '02 in Korea and Mexico made the quarterfinals on a couple occasions. Add to that the fact that they both play against good teams in the Confederations Cup and other international tournaments that teams like Jamaica, Honduras, TNT, and other Concacaf nations dont get the opportunity to play in. That in itself makes them better because they players get exposed to talent outside of the region playing at a higher level more often than anybody else.

I agree with you here... it is also consistent with my statement: The US has well prepared teams able to compete at a high level.


I have one factfile that maybe you should pay attention to. Mexico havent beaten USA in the US over the last couple of occasions. What does that tell you about the gap between USA and Mexico in recent times..(the last decade). USA players are nothing special individually right? what is your definition of nothing special? Is it because they've got players who arent good dribblers? what makes them nothing special? I await your response?

An appropriate comparison or analogy is basketball... where the best US players are seen by many as supremely "talented".
The best US football players are not so regarded.... even within the parochial US media.

If lists were made of the best football players of any year or era... the US would probably not be represented by most pundits.... if one believes that statement as I do.... then it's logical to conclude that US players are nothing special.

You and others are entitled of course to a contrary opinion.

[Karl]

Just where do you observe this overwhelming talent?

I have lived in the US many years and have yet to see it on a wide or consistent basis.

It may be that we have different standards when it comes to "talent".

I saw it on the fields in Brentwood, New York. Some of those Colombian, Mexican, Brazilian and Haitians were simply unbelievable.

Since I have been in Florida again I am seeing the same level talent.

Oooh yes, it may be that our idea of talent differs. I look for what I judge to be about 40 yards - 4+sec (under 5 sec) bursts, *vision/seeing the field and using 'noggin', **good technical skills - total trapping and range passing & type passing, movement into support space, concerted and consistent effort to get to he ball first - both on offense and defense...and yuh dun kno I am all about TEAM.

*+** = frequency of completed good passes. (Flipside - Frequency with which ball is given away)

[Karl]

Karl a talk bout 20 years ago.

how did Adu, and Altidore make it? yes there are some that currently miss it but in many case it is the lack of organization by our communities.

There is a lot of outreach but do we take advantage?

Adu has the technical skills...but he plays like a fool! You cannot be considered good if you play in a silly manner...often anti-TEAM manner.

Just consider, for football it is TEAM aims and objectives before all else!

Atidore has not got the TOP OF THE WORLD technical skill level. Middle of the pack player.

[Don1]

Your point was worth making. The level of organisation the USSF and its affiliate arms have across the US is 'wide and deep'...and the organisation at its national teams level impressive.

Why can we not work at getting to that same level organisation...even if only at the level of our national TEAMs?

Given the US' penchant to leave out there 'best talents'...we, if our organisation at the national team levels...using the talents we seem to throw up in unending numbers year after year - (talent that for the most part is marred) - should surpass the USA in terms of FIFA Rankings and performances on the World's stage/football fields.

I am 'sure' we would! ...and we should strike now before the US starts putting their most talented into their national teams. Wouldn't it be nice to have the US playing catch-up for a change?

Good questions.

I believe that with proper and consistent organization and resources... Jamaica could be at the level of Ghana or better.