The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

[Mosiah]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

<DIV>Fine Karl! Well said!</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Now, how do you nudge others through the door? What system do we come up with to ensure that we do not hang on to dinosaurs of the program, even though they may have given us tremendous games in the past?</DIV>

[Karl]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Siya (10/30/2006)

Granted there would be a problem in making a proper assessment of our youngsters' progress as they are neverinvolved in age-group matches of quality.

The ones we are talking about Karl were involved in age group matches of quality -I seem to remember two youth world cups not to mention the qualifiers where they came out unbeaten by their CONCACAF peers! They matched play for play Landon Donovan, Damarcus Beasley; Mexico's Luis Perez, CR's Winston Parkes and Eric Scott - players who qualified ahead of Tappa and Co at the senior level and have gone on to play in World cups since 2002.

I would like to know which of our youngsters demanded by performances at a lower level elevation to the senior squad?

When The seniors failed in 2002 qualifiers and Carl Brown usedKing Kelly and some of his peersin the last game against Costa Rica and di yout dem neva back and give it wicked to Costa Rica even though they ended up losing -Jamaica was abuzz with the performance andwewondered why we neverjust usedem youth deh from beginning ALAS by next qualifiers ('06) roll around you hear say dem fi just be understudy to some man weh nuh play a good game fi Jamaica since 1998.

I would say Keith Kelly and Allien Whittakerwere the only ones I saw who after the 2001 Argentina U-20 trip deserved to be in the senior squad. I thought then, and said so then, that they should have been drafted into the senior squad.

Karl the name Keith Kelly was like a badwud to you and TK specially. I don't remember you saying he deserved to be in the squad. You capitulated when we called you on your hypocrisy but you never want hear the name Hue or Kelly called near our midfield at all - that's how I remember it.

Kelly could then command a few minutes per match (*spelling Tappa) and Whittaker would have been our 4th (If I am remembering correctly) goalkeeper.

Why the youth would come in to spell a midfield general who rarely took shots, hadn't scored in YEARS and hadn't made one penetrative pass that lead to an easy goal for our forward in years if ever -whenthese were things Keithwasbeing taughtvery well at PSG, of all places,so heshould have just outright replaced Tappa.

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Nonsense! (Refering to playing against quality teams - This is an explanation as on reading the post again I realised it could have been interpreted as sayingyour position was 'nonsense'. That was not the intent. The intent was to say, the age-groupteams did not have many matches against quality teams previous to attending at the World's championships and after they returned.)

They played against few quality teams. Why do you not name the quality teams? You shall besurprised to find that over the years they were in our national set up that number is 'a mighty few'?

...and, then their development was stopped.

After Kelly and that group - Kelly being the exception - came back fromArgentina 'nothing happened'.It is a fabrication to claim they played against quality teams. Most of the players sat around for years...and, are still sitting around.

There was and is no plan in place to keep them playing against quality teams. How can you have them sitting twiddling their thumbs and expect them to have developed to 'first rate quality'...deserving of competing on a level playing field against players in higher professional levels? I am saying they must be keep playing against TOP OF THE WORLD quality AGE GROUP (U-21) TEAMS.

We do not have similar domestic arrangements as the TOP OF THE WORLD teams. Our only hope at giving our age-group youngsters an environment in which to develop at the same rate asthe young in the TOP OF THE WORLDfootball playing countries is,as our players move t

[Karl]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Mosiah (10/31/2006)<DIV>Fine Karl! Well said!</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Now, how do you nudge others through the door? What system do we come up with to ensure that we do not hang on to dinosaurs of the program, even though they may have given us tremendous games in the past?</DIV>

Simple! You have to trust the selection policy of the coaches.

You (The JFF) hires the coach. leave him/her be to get on with the job. Does not live up to 'the expected' - i.e. developement of strong, winning national teams...and thus improving players' skills - technical &amp; tactical...then get rid of him/her.

We all will disagree from time to timewith selection of players. It must be that we trust the person 'we' employed? Right? If it were not so, 'we' would not have employed that person. Right?

It is simple - 'We' must trust that coach.

I believe that we have had poor administrators putting their noses in selection when we have had LOCAL COACHES.

A local coach must bell the cat and be prepared to be fired...and, tell the administrators where to 'get off'.

[Plush]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Mosiah, yo thrwo up Whittaker..let me ask you about 3

Omar Daley

Garfield Reid

Kevin Deer

Sean Fraser

I'll add to the list as we go..Can we say these guys didn't get a fair chance in the National squad? Can we say that these guys were committed to their success and it didn't get them far?

Advice the yutes this..if you want it, you have to work overtime to achiieve it....especially because u are Jamaicans...We have tohave the yutes take responsibility for their future...Stop sitting around blaming everyone except themselves.....Do youi even know that Fraser was on da corner once inna drugs....Now...money haffi mek u would say right..But this was when Fraser was a big name and a mek a few penny but wanted more...his that paying the bills or greed?

[Mosiah]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

<DIV>Personal responsibility is always a factor. But when the players don't have a good structure within which to improve, they will get sidetracked. I am saying fix the structure first. Only then we can blame them for whatever else they get themselves into.</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>I am just not convinced that if they were in a similar system as d'Alessandro and Saviola they would have time for anything else.</DIV>

[Muadib]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

There is a serious flaw in your argument.

Why would you attempt to replace your most effective and experienced midfield providing stability with with someone you want to buss ?

Keith Kelly and Whitmore are not mutally exclusive.

Think about it a bit and come back.

[Muadib]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

You sound like a Government apologist.

Blame the Parents.

Did we have better parents under Simoes ?

[Plush]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

I agree with you to a point...If there was a better structure in place...more of the yutes would have been more successful..Bu dEfine that structure.....That structure is not JFF

It is Parenthood...support while they are growing up and not pushing them to fend for themselve

It is discipline....discipline from the parents and the school to keep them in line and keep them humble to want to achieve more

It is the Country's Infrastructure - opportunity within the country to grow, mature, be nurtured, and have a hope other than migrating

if the Government cant put there house in order...do your really expect the JFF to

If the government cant create opportunities for the people how do you expect the JFF to consistently keep 50 people in camp, play international games, pay players, run the national leaque and sub leaqes...etc etc etc

Do we have one of those wealthy russians to come invest....Look how long wi tek fi start di academy...Wi better have a financing plan to keep it running cause it caan run off itself......

Trust mi..if we fail to go to the next worldcup..that academy will be like a ghost house....

So Mosiah, can you pull the Corporate support together to help the JFF build an infrastructure...Or do we need Burrell to come with deep pocket and finance the thing wen it short....tell mi dat

[Muadib]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

When you are integrating young talent into a National squad, you do not do it at the expense of the stabilizing forces in the team, certainly not for meaningful games.. unless the new tactic is to experiment in important qualifying games.

Is there a precedent for this tactic ?

[Mosiah]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Plush (10/31/2006)I agree with you to a point...If there was a better structure in place...more of the yutes would have been more successful..Bu dEfine that structure.....That structure is not JFF

It is Parenthood...support while they are growing up and not pushing them to fend for themselve

It is discipline....discipline from the parents and the school to keep them in line and keep them humble to want to achieve more

It is the Country's Infrastructure - opportunity within the country to grow, mature, be nurtured, and have a hope other than migrating

if the Government cant put there house in order...do your really expect the JFF to

If the government cant create opportunities for the people how do you expect the JFF to consistently keep 50 people in camp, play international games, pay players, run the national leaque and sub leaqes...etc etc etc

Do we have one of those wealthy russians to come invest....Look how long wi tek fi start di academy...Wi better have a financing plan to keep it running cause it caan run off itself......

Trust mi..if we fail to go to the next worldcup..that academy will be like a ghost house....

So Mosiah, can you pull the Corporate support together to help the JFF build an infrastructure...Or do we need Burrell to come with deep pocket and finance the thing wen it short....tell mi dat

If Burrell couldn't build that structure before, why yuh tink it can happen now?

Look like wi corner dark. I agree. Until the country's economy does better, much better, we will be having talks like this for a while! I can bet there are many countries whose players fall by the wayside as ours do.

[Siya]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Karl! Two youth world cups were not quality age-group internationals? Not enough to see what these kids could do - what's a higher level to judge ability to perform than at a world cup.

Talk about target shifting 101 - What quality age-group internationals did Tappa and Pepe and Bibi play? The age group internationals that you are talking about - high profile friendlies against Brazil and Argentina and Italy and Holland - is wishful thinking - we wont get those games so stop chakka chakka up the argument with things so far from reality.

Simoes developed the core of his team with games at the senior level. Bibi is a way more talented player than Messam but no way was he a better left back than Messam when he first started playing in fact he wasnt a good left back - Pepe had to play both his and Bibi's position during Bibi's early days. Maybe Simoes should have waited for Bibi to get quality age-group matches under his belt before he drafted him into the senior team? Maybe by the year 2000 Bibi would have gotten his first cap no contract at Bolton but he would have played a host of Olympic qualifiers etc... Lazaroni would have come in in 2000 and inherit a good little Harbor View player with great experience in age-group friendlies...

[Mosiah]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

A owe yuh a beer tuh!

[Siya]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Most effective my foot. How is a midfielder who doesn't shoot; doesn't tackle, is over six feet tall but can't win anything in the air, wont even try; is supposed to be the midfield general but doesn't make through passes or even make forward passes or even make passes beyond a certain distance the most effective midfielder.

You know what effective is? Try Peter Cargill -immaculate first touch; cant knock him off the ball - he held on tohis'girl'until he wanted to pass it; Won almost all fifty fifty balls -great in the air, hard shot.Used a great range of passes to dictate the pace at which we played that's the real loss we had in midfield and have never managed to replace him. He didn't want to retire - Simoes retired him immediately after the world cup.When did whitmore become this effective midfielder? His detractors called him the shadow his supporters said he was a bypassed midfielder -both of you in effect acknowledged he didn't do much but gave different reasons why.

Most effective since when?

[Mosiah]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Okay. Make it a 6-pack!

[Karl]

RE: The Lost Boyz - After playing in two World Youth Championships (WYC)...

Siya (10/31/2006)Karl! Two youth world cups were not quality age-group internationals? Not enough to see what these kids could do - what's a higher level to judge ability to perform than at a world cup.

Talk about target shifting 101 - What quality age-group internationals did Tappa and Pepe and Bibi play? The age group internationals that you are talking about - high profile friendlies against Brazil and Argentina and Italy and Holland - is wishful thinking - we wont get those games so stop chakka chakka up the argument with things so far from reality.

Simoes developed the core of his team with games at the senior level. Bibi is a way more talented player than Messam but no way was he a better left back than Messam when he first started playing in fact he wasnt a good left back - Pepe had to play both his and Bibi's position during Bibi's early days. Maybe Simoes should have waited for Bibi to get quality age-group matches under his belt before he drafted him into the senior team? Maybe by the year 2000 Bibi would have gotten his first cap no contract at Bolton but he would have played a host of Olympic qualifiers etc... Lazaroni would have come in in 2000 and inherit a good little Harbor View player with great experience in age-group friendlies...

First a correction - There is only one competition that is called The World Cup.

Secondly - I will agree that playing three or four matches at those age-group championships should allow for potential to be seen. ...but, even playing well at age-group championships do not of itself provide the means to fulfill potential.

...and, playing in even two (many of the kids did not play in both age-group championships) age-group championships spread through a 3 year year period does not provide the continuous conduit for development. You need 'no down time'. The players needed to have adequate number of matches against quality teams each and every year through to today. Some would have made real world class progression and some would have not. Those would had other players come through and perform at a higher level than they could would be replaced.

That being replaced by 'better players' is key. Even if some did not progress as rapidly as others...as must happen...those who still remained, even at their comparitive slow level of progress must not be replaced by others on the basis that the others are 'younger and show potential'. Theyshould lose theirplaces onlyto players who produce 'better performances'.

The argument on Bibi and Messam has no relevance to what I am saying.

...and, btw - maybe you and a host of others thought Messam was better than Bibi...and, just maybe Simoes did not think so.

...and, the matter of a Bibi or a Pepe jumping straight into the national team will always happen from time to time. You should realise that from time to timean athlete that 'comes from nowhere' and prove by performance that he/she belongs occurs over and over throughout history. Those are 'one-off' occurances. What we are discussing here is planned avenues for the development of our young.

Aside:

I wonder why you believe we can never get quality matches for each and every one of our national teams ALL THE TIME?

Are you saying to me that, like the JFF, you have no confidence in us (our people...as being able to plan these things)?

Cho man, do betta dan dat!