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Top 25 batsmen all time - ranked!

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  • #16
    I hear you. In fact when someone does not want to make a goal measurable it's a good indicator that they are not serious. Even something a basic as losing weight. It's easy for someone to say, I am going to lose some weight, but ask them how much weight by what date and then they get defensive.

    As for personal finances and having a personal budget....no wonder most people stay broke no matter how much money they make.
    "‎It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men" - Frederick Douglass

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    • #17
      Exile here is the problem with that table it s ranked by number of runs scored and tenduklar has played twice as many tests as say richards maybe four times as many versus say Bradman. So that is not a good measure, average is the best measure.

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      • #18
        On this one pollock average slightly better that Hadley but look at number of test centuries, Hadley has 10 over 22 tests and pollock 7 over 23. Headley surpasses him in delivering the mark of distinction in batting, a test century.

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        • #19
          True. But even that has its problems especially when comparing across different eras. Different pitches, different equipment, etc.

          Within the same era it is fairly reliable for batsmen with a reasonable length career.
          "‎It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men" - Frederick Douglass

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          • #20
            Over the long run, they should all average out, yes....but sometimes the game rules change too...like the number of bouncers in an over, the video system for '2nd looks' and the number of balls in an over....now we have bats that are being made from new materials..lighter batting pads, better fielding....cricket, lovely cricket....

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            • #21
              True, but the universal rule of every action leads to an opposite and equal reaction keeps the field pretty much level in each era so we come pretty close to being apples to apples, if you look at it overall, you will se every era represented in the top 25, it is skewed somewhat in top 10 with the 20-30s era well represented then the 50-60s era next but overall every era is well represented, with induction of one day and t20 and more matches on test level it makes it more complex.

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              • #22
                Wasn't comparing with your table. It is a table for most runs scored in career.

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                • #23
                  Add to that the blatant thievery, home decisions and racism to some decisions. Think of all those games WI played in Australia and New Zealand, even England and how the hometown decisions affected players averages and careers. It was not across the board either. TV replays and slow-mo has helped us a lot now, so umpires have to be more discreet in their bias.

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                  • #24
                    Facts foolishly applied in a vacuum can make fools of the wisest of men

                    Because facts are organized in a mathematically correct system does not make the outcomes of the calculations optimal. This is because in all sports, value judgments can be just as important or even superior to so called facts even if said facts are performance based. Note that the assumptions which are the fulcrum of all statistical ranking systems are necessarily value judgments.... the outcomes are only as good as the assumptions

                    The impact of experienced insight is incalculable and this type of value judgment expertly applied is invaluable to talent selection. This is a skill NOT subject to quantification by any mathematical system such as those in which you repose complete faith.

                    Case is point is Clive Lloyd choosing an untested Michael Holding to tour Australia in 1975... none of your type of "facts" could justify such brilliant insight. Simoes choosing Bibi Gardner is another example. Indeed such examples abound in the world of sport.... this common occurrence completely defeats your position of complete reliance on statistics.

                    So called facts must be leavened by expert value judgments to create optimal player and overall team selection. Absolute reliance on statistics will engender missed opportunities to unearth & expose superior talent and develop the most effective teams.

                    That's my point
                    Last edited by Don1; June 2, 2012, 12:52 PM.
                    TIVOLI: THE DESTRUCTION OF JAMAICA'S EVIL EMPIRE

                    Recognizing the victims of Jamaica's horrendous criminality and exposing the Dummies like Dippy supporting criminals by their deeds.. or their silence.

                    D1 - Xposing Dummies since 2007

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                    • #25
                      Don1 How you love fight so much you all a fight your self, all statistics do is show us what is happening in reality, now when Lloyd or wi selectors pick Holding, they picked him based on his first class cricket record which again was statistical based measurements, can you imagine picking a bowler that is fast and furious but is not smart enough to work his advantage, we have seen plenty of those, you know how we know they are bad or not good enough, no wickets!! Simple, stats. Same thing with Gardner is not just some buck up picks,you notice performance and you look at what the results are and you make a decision on the stats you have. Who or what re you fighting me or the stats, I am easy to fight, the stats speak for themselves, no getting around it and the longer the period of measurement the more evident the truth.

                      So here is one you might like, I am calling for mattocks inclusion and trial in our WC campaign, he has done little to date in pro level ball but what I have seen is something unusual by the eye test (which I know is your specialty, mine too but only when viewing the opposite sex, just looking still!!!) however what I have to back up that eye test with is his college record where he has been scoring at close to a goal per game so again stats confirms the eye test, can't move forward with intuition unless you do the homework, otherwise you end up with a lot of misses. I especially at work don't have time for a lot of misses so I pay due diligence to the bottom line with a strong gut feeling to balance the whole thing out,especially when picking new and key workers for critical positions. Same thing for ball and everything else in life without the stats you are 'singing' in the wind, if you know what I mean.

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                      • #26
                        As a young man nothing wrong when you end up with a lot of "misses" and you should ALWAYS make time for (a lot of) "misses"...
                        Peter R

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                        • #27
                          Your argument has been shredded so you revert to obfuscation..... but you only expose your argument's contradictions

                          Fact: Holding was NOT chosen on performance...but on POTENTIAL. His first class career was very slim and his selection a shock. Gardner's selection was on the same basis...POTENTIAL displayed at a critical (very young) age.

                          Get your facts straight. There is a difference between the demonstrated performance in professional settings you reference in your matrix and potential displayed by the young & gifted

                          Your reference to Mattocks and his college performance further destroys your matrix... it had zero reference to college level play... You are making things up as you go along and shifting goal posts when exposed. A statistical theory is useless in that environment and must be discarded

                          Betta yuh juss admit seh you get one rush ah blood and the wrongheaded statistical matrix was the result.

                          Nuhbaddy naw hold dat gainst yuh
                          Last edited by Don1; June 2, 2012, 07:35 PM.
                          TIVOLI: THE DESTRUCTION OF JAMAICA'S EVIL EMPIRE

                          Recognizing the victims of Jamaica's horrendous criminality and exposing the Dummies like Dippy supporting criminals by their deeds.. or their silence.

                          D1 - Xposing Dummies since 2007

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Haha you kill me, you really think saying things make it so, I can bet you that every level that holding played on he showed talent, if it is what you say then what we have is pure buck up and a strong possibility that a holding would never have been discovered, that is exactly what I try to avoid, when you run operations or businesses it can't work on buck up, too much opportunity for misses. My reference to mattock has nothing to do with the table, the table only seeks to look at a limited set of available data points, I certainly do not have the time and resources to build a data set to include every thing, all I am trying to do is to help set some guidelines of performance measurement that is it. As a matter of fact even thelimitedpoints in the setup the Jamaican football setup does not even measure many of those points even though all the major football leagues and countries do that as a matter of common course, your goal seems to be to tear down everything, well you will notice that in life it is easiest to destroy and hardest to build, any one can destroy, very few can build. I have invited you to give some constructive feedback but your focus is on tearing down, I understand sometimes when you cannot build then you must destroy. In your case I have seen many posts and for the most part I have always seen you as a man to try and build, but it seems you have taken a set on trying to destroy the idea of using performance and measurement of the stats that are mostly available to help make us better.

                            I fully understand if you disagree but you offer no alternative or solution so from my standpoint it is always about being destructive on your part in this argument rather than being constructive. As a jc man and especially one of the people I most admire was nw Manley and what he did to build up the infrastructure of Jamaica which has been eroded every year since he died for the most part, well I expect that you would try to live to those type of ideals as a jc man. I invite you to add some constructive thought to this, how can we better measure performance so we isolate the best faster, how do we institutionalize the performance culture rather than the "feel sey" culture. Think about this try not to be trite and personal about it, it is not about that at all, it is about moving forward. I have little time to waste arguing nth degree detail to prove a point, even though when we meet face to face we can certainly get into that, as I feel we would have a lot of fun in that kind of forum.
                            Last edited by Stonigut; June 2, 2012, 07:47 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Ok...I hear your plea. My tone may sound harsh but to me it's just plain talk and not personal. This discussion is a useful academic exercise to me.

                              There is a place for statistics but your approach to me was deterministic with some very rigid criteria based on status... that's not an approach that's workable imho... We can agree to disagree.

                              I like statistics and performance measurement but cannot use that solely in an evaluation of performance that's as much art as it is science. There is something undefinable and un-measureable about sport...especially team play as opposed to an individual sport like track where measurement and comparison is easy

                              BTW..mi nuh si what school origin or NW Manley haffi duh wid dis still plus mi ear seh I'm was a Jago man anyway
                              TIVOLI: THE DESTRUCTION OF JAMAICA'S EVIL EMPIRE

                              Recognizing the victims of Jamaica's horrendous criminality and exposing the Dummies like Dippy supporting criminals by their deeds.. or their silence.

                              D1 - Xposing Dummies since 2007

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                So talk to me what would you do, you have a Jamaican team playing a sport where the idea of measurement of performance is not highly though of thus the identification, selection, development of athletes is based on a hit or miss system. I have worked with teams in multiple parts of the world engaged in all levels of operations and for me, the best way to get maximum performance is to be able to identify the best talent, train the best talent, set goals for the team, talk goals and measurement of performance constantly and what you get at the end is a high performing team that consistently beats teams they compete against, they ask how you do it and I just smile and thing recruit the best talent which is not easy, you got to know what you looking for, develop, train retain and performance culture. Same thing in football or any other human endeavor, it is not perfect, it is definitely not static as you are thinking, it is constantly evolving so that is why I ask, what are your thoughts, how can we bring performance culture to Jamaican football if we don't measure anything continually. Our strikers have little idea that the top strikers in the best leagues are scoring a goal a game, they are thinking a goal every 5 games is pretty good, we need to be developing strikers that can play at that level otherwise we will continue to be where we are, a little more than a joker team, who when the heat gets real hot cops out. So how do we start that process? Sorry about the jc thing, I was thinking jc from another discussion from way back.

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